Dead Cow

[octothorpe]

I was having an interesting IMversation (no, that's not a word) with notdefined, and the subject turned to leather bars. A lot has been said over the years about the golden age of leather bars and biker bars, and how today it's just not the same, blah, blah, blah. A few interesting points came out of this:

• A lot of people know what a leather bar/biker bar is "supposed to be", but they always fail to make what they've got, into their ideal. This isn't a problem with the owner, it's a problem with the patrons who think this. If you don't like it, *change* it. A bar owner only provides a venue, the rest is up to the people who go there. I've gone into straight bars and made them gay bars for the evening. Nothing is stopping anyone from making their bar into their ideal.


• We're a much more "out" and open population. We simply don't need to sneak around dark alleys looking for sex in dodgy places. Of course, some of us still want to.


• Bars-as-hookup-spots have been made totally irrelevant by the internet. Why bother going through the cruise dance, when your sex partner can be delivered to your door, not unlike "Fresh Direct"


• There is a lot of nostalgia (and I mean this in the correct sense of the term, not just "memory") out there for that "Golden Age" of dodgy leather/biker bar. This is an age that never *actually* happened the way people like to think it did. Today, people either weren't alive when it was all happening, or they're just remembering their fondest bits. Many of the memories people have, are actually second-hand stories of "how it used to be", mostly because those who were around "back in the day", are sadly, no longer with us.

Discuss!!

Comments

[bjarvis.livejournal.com]

Why bother going through the cruise dance, when your sex partner can be delivered to your door [...]

The thrill of the hunt. Flirting in person --whether it leads to sex or not-- is vastly more enjoyable than sending ones & zeroes across the network. IMHO, anyway.

[theoctothorpe.livejournal.com]

Oh, *I* get that... but you can't deny things have changed, and that's no longer the rule.

I likened it to owning a ranch and killing the cow to make your steak, vs. picking up a plastic-wrapped porterhouse from the market. Most people have *no idea* how their food gets there, they just like the convenience.

[quirkstreet.livejournal.com]

YMMV. Even after all these years of delightful depravity, I often find it easier to stalk chat up handsome strangers for the purpose of future play dates on line.

I don't much do the instahookup Manhunt style of thing, it's true. But I've been known to cruise hunky sysadmins several states away in order to lay the groundwork for eventual boinkage. And the flirtation can feel pretty hot.

Among other things, bars can get awfully confusing. So MANY hot guys at once sometimes sends my brain into can't-pick overload. And then I go home alone (you heard it here first!)

[delmarmar.livejournal.com]

I agree all around and especially with your first point. Be the change you want to see. Show 'em how it's done, or shut your mouth. No effort deserves no results. If you luck into a place that's perfect just the way it is, then help maintain that perfection.

Other than that I tend to think of online hookups as ordering pizza, not "Fresh Direct". Close enough.

[hennys64.livejournal.com]

I actually think it's more like Netflix. You get the selection of the day delivered, with the other ones already listed & lined up for future perusal. If you don't like what comes in the mail, no need to make an effort to make it work, the next one's already on its way.

[hwynym.livejournal.com]

Why bother going through the cruise dance, when your sex partner can be delivered to your door not unlike "Fresh Direct"

I've always said that Manhunt is the Peapod (probably a lot like Fresh Direct in that they deliver groceries...) of gay dating. Go online, order up a man and have him delivered. At least that's how it's been described to me. I've never actually used Manhunt.

As for the nostalgia for the Leather/biker bars - I'm afraid I'm in the camp of those who don't have a clue as to how it used to be, as I didn't come out as bi and start visiting these places until 2000.

I do know that there was one facet of all bars that kept me out of them for most of the 90's and that was the smoking. Now that they're all nonsmoking here in MA, it's easier for me to go.

But I really don't have any experiences to long for, from "the Golden Age".

[quirkstreet.livejournal.com]

1998 was the Golden Age, man. You missed it.

(I'm semi-serious. I think a lot of people romanticize the first year or so that they do something. That was my first year out in the bars. I'd have gone in '97 but I was too busy being polyamorous at home.)

[theoctothorpe.livejournal.com]

Yeah... that's actually the one thing that keeps me going to the bars... I can now breathe in them!

While I'd hit the bars of yore now and again, I didn't really enjoy it, as it was *horrible* when I got home.

[rsc.livejournal.com]

This is an age that never *actually* happened the way people like to think it did.

This, along with the amplification that follows it, is more or less the definition of "nostalgia".

[theoctothorpe.livejournal.com]

Yes, I realise I was redundant.

[furr-a-bruin.livejournal.com]

In places I agree with you, and in places I don't. ;)

While it's true that in many ways patrons make a bar - the owner has an influence on that, depending on who he does or doesn't make welcome. Sure, if you had a group of people determined to change a bar it might happen - but against the owner's will, long term? I don't buy it.

When the smoking law changed here in California, the Faultline in Silverlake - which has a sizeable patio where it's legal to smoke - was inundated in twink, who previously wouldn't have set foot in the place. The management of the place did nothing to encourage the bear/biker/leather contingents - and they eventually gave up and went somewhere they didn't have to breathe gallons of perfume. The bar was long the "home bar" of many LA motorcycle clubs - they've all moved to the Eagle LA, which welcomes them.

As far as nostalgia goes - I didn't come out in time to experience the Golden Age of Folsom, but I can understand it by analogy with the Lone Star Saloon. I'm one of the relatively few people who actually patronized the original location at 7th and Howard that was destroyed by the Loma Prieta quake. I have a shirt from the second batch ever printed with the classic "CLOSE THE FUCK'N DOOR" logo on the back. (A shirt that was christened by none other than Rick Redewill himself, I might add... ;)

And I was there for the Golden Age of that bar; there may have been stuff behind the scenes I wasn't aware of; while Rick and I knew each other casually, I wouldn't call us close - but I'll never forget seeing him looking stunned one night after the official re-opening on Harrison and asking if he was OK. The bar was doing such incredible business he was at risk of running out of change for the $20 bills people were bringing in and he had no idea where to GET small bills at that hour on a Sunday! After the "legend" of the original location having nearly a year to soak into the growing Bear community, the place took off like wildfire when it reopened.

Sure there were a lot of people whose input made that bar an amazing place - Steve Stafford, Pete Vafiades, and many others (not to mention the patrons of that time), but a lot of it really was Rick. He created a legend that the current bar is STILL coasting on, despite it having long ago disposed of the "edge" that created that legend. I'll never forget one time the Rainbows were having a party in the upstairs - which was mostly unfinished, back then - and Rick came up the stairs to bellow "You guys gotta stop pissin' on each other up here! It's coming through the ceiling downstairs and I don't want the projection TV fucked up!" Note - not a word about drippage on the patrons.... When he ran the place, the slogan "Bears, Bikers & Mayhem" actually meant something.

Rick wanted a place where he and the people he liked could party; he'd close the bar for a day to redecorate for New Year's or Gay Pride. Now? They'd never give up the revenue or spend that kind of money.

So - while I see your point about people buying into a story about a bar they never experienced, I can see that there have been "golden times" in various bars in various places, and people really did experience them; I can't believe the heyday of the Lone Star Saloon is a totally unique experience.

I only managed to visit the infamous Ambush in SF once before it closed - and I saw enough to understand why its patrons loved it so, even if it was in decline at that point.

Admittedly, what one considers a "golden age" for a bar depends on what one likes and what one is used to... but I think they really do happen.

[theoctothorpe.livejournal.com]

I was hoping you'd chime in. Thanks much!

I think you slightly missed my point though. I didn't say the "golden Age" didn't happen, just that it didn't happen as people remember it. It's in our genetic make-up to forget the really bad things and concentrate on the good things. Hell yeah, great things happened, but nostalgia makes us think that those supremely-mega-awesome times happened every moment of every day (until they stopped). If the life of the bar was taped 24/7, you'd see a bell-curve of good/bad/interesting/boring times.

A question about the Faultline… It *was* a biker bar, then the twinks came in… so the bikers decided to leave. Why do they need to be encouraged to stay? If they thought it was *their* bar, why didn't they put up a fight? As a bar owner, my best interest is making money, and allowing everyone who is willing to pay for a beer do so. Ultimately, the people who make it their home create the vibe.

I do agree though, that yes, there is some "influence" the bar owner can have… Hell, every bar has a "theme", subtle or not. That theme sends out a vibe, and people who pick up on that vibe, come. So did the owner of the Faultline suddenly take all the biker bits down, and put up huge posters of smooth blonde 18-year-olds?

[quirkstreet.livejournal.com]

If you don't like it, change it.

Aw, instant gratification takes too loooong!

Seriously, this has always been my philosophy as well. The only drawback is that you get in the thick of organizing these things, and then YOU become the one who's the target of ire from the do-nothings too. If I had a dime for every time someone carped about how the organized bi community (bit of an oxymoron right there, alas) was "too ...." for "regular" people (too queer, too political, not enough fun, whatever) and only reflected the issues of the "out of touch leadership" (i.e., "people willing to put the time in") ....

[theoctothorpe.livejournal.com]

Oh, of course!

The problem with the "vision" that people have is that includes them, and no one else.

[excessor.livejournal.com]

To expand the point a bit: we are a more "out" and open population, whether we're leather-oriented or not. In the 60s and 70s when it was still illegal for men to hold hands—let alone have sex—going to a gay bar was a big deal. You risked public exposure and therefore loss of family, friends, and job. To go to a leather bar then was an even bigger act of self-identity and a statement of desire.

We've come a long way, baby. For chrissakes, on one of our cruise vacations, there was a leather t-dance one afternoon, although it was far more a costume party than anything else. While we have not yet won the ultimate victories, I think we can declare that for many of us, in many places, we have established ourselves as citizens who are no less deserving than any others. And we thereby run the risk of being slowly assimilated into a tide of mediocrity. But that's what we wanted, right? I am reminded of a line written by Jane Wagner, spoken by one of Lily Tomlin's characters: “I grew up thinking I could be anyone! I see now I should have been more specific.”

We simply don't need to sneak around dark alleys looking for sex in dodgy places. Of course, some of us still want to.

This made me laugh out loud.

[unzeugmatic.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty certain we've talked about this before, in various ways -- particularly the connection between the atmosphere/popularity of hookup bars and the Internet. My thoughts about this stemmed from the fact that after thirty years of trying (again and again, like an idiot), I finally found gay bars comfortable, even welcoming, and I've become what I often call a late-in-life barfly. What I figure is that the people whose only goal was hookup were playing a different game than me so there was no connection and I felt odd and alien -- and the Internet has filtered those people out. What's left is not hookup-free, of course, and flirtation is still the byword and heartbeat, but the people who go out to bars in some way in some fashion are interested in a certain sort of social/group-based human interaction -- as Brian's note above reflects. That's much more to my speed and liking.

Conversely -- or maybe reinforcingly -- I am every bit as uncomfortable in the online hookup world (to the extend I've looked at it) as I ever was in gay bars when they were predominantly so goal-oriented.

Dinner next week?

Re: Dead Cow

[gotmoof.livejournal.com]

Please don't kill the Kow.

Think of the calves!!!

[brunorepublic.livejournal.com]

I'm speaking about this from a broader perspective, but...

Phony nostalgia can be found just about everywhere. Part of it is selective memory, in that people like to remember the best times and not the worst. Part of it is media exaggeration, which encompasses a lot of things like movies set in previous years, or "retro nights" at clubs which play very different music than what you would've actually heard BITD). These paint a very distorted picture of previous eras. Finally, you have the fact that when people reminisce about the past, what they may not realize that they really miss are their youthful idealism and the ability to take joy in the new, because what was new was all about them (I concede I am not expressing this point well, but I'm lacking better words right now).

All these things combine to create an artificial image of the past as some grand, lost era that younger people have missed out on.

[dac.livejournal.com]

Phony nostalgia isn't necessarily a bad thing, is it?

[grandiva1968.livejournal.com]

Why bother going through the cruise dance, when your sex partner can be delivered to your door, not unlike ‘Fresh Direct’

I must not have the correct URLs…

[cellboy.livejournal.com]

Why bother going through the cruise dance, when your sex partner can be delivered to your door, not unlike "Fresh Direct"

Well, I would still rather flirt in person and touch the merchandise (as in shopping), than do the internet thing (although I have been more successful on line lately). The "memories" are a bit exaggerated. But a dark leather bar, would be a nice change; the white sneakers always blind me, and the cologne makes me gag (LOL). Bars like people, change. No stopping that. Plus have you seen the price of leather lately!

[low-fat-muffin.livejournal.com]

is chowing on someone's chaps clad butt in a #37 busstop at 4am - considered a dodgy place?

[furr-a-bruin.livejournal.com]

Oh, and as for internet vs. bars - as someone who is awful at cruising in bars, I haven't noticed much of an improvement online - I certainly haven't experienced the kind of "ordering in" that you describe.

[theoctothorpe.livejournal.com]

Neither have I, but that's because I'm not really that kinda bloke. I suspect you're not either. However, we're not exactly a proper sample set.

[foresterx.livejournal.com]

I actually agree with everything you just said

[mrdreamjeans.livejournal.com]

I think you'll be surprised by my response, but I was younger once:)

1. Yes, you can make a bar what you want it to be. A collective energy is possible and can make an experience soar.
2. Sneaking around back alleys was really fun. I miss it.
3. The cruise dance, the mating ritual, the personality and skills to score are still more important to me than an instant hookup over the internet. I do not know if I am attracted to someone unless I'm looking them in the eye and am listening to them speak. I've had more than one friend injured and one killed through instant internet hookups.
4. I am here to tell about it. The leather/cruise bars of the 70s were just as hot as the stories and I'm not exaggerating in my telling of the past. I have first hand stories of The Locker in Houston, The Hole in San Diego in the early 80's. the Mineshaft in NYC in 1981 ... the list goes on. There was a golden age and it isn't the one we're living in.

HUGS!

[theoctothorpe.livejournal.com]

But that's kinda what I am getting at…

You may not think it was exaggeration, but you weren't there 24/7. As I told George/Furr above, it's in our nature to remember the good things. If you look objectively over time, there would be "up" days and "down" days (and all the way down days). It's not that the times you had *weren't* hot, but they weren't super-mega-white-hot all the time. Yes, there was a Golden Age, but that age is personal, and therefore different for everyone.

As far as the cruise… I'm totally right there with you. That's how *we* operate, but anecdote does not equal data. My Flist is pretty small, and skews toward such things. Sadly, we're in the micro-minority. With that remark, I am not condemning those who like the insta-hookups the Net provides, but I'd like more folk like us to populate the bars!

Remind me to ask you about the stories you have re: Net hookup tragedies. I'm curious.

[greatbearmd.livejournal.com]

The intarweb made it possible for me to finally meet people in a way comfortable to me, and as an interesting side effect, made me able to cruise bars and such and cast aside my introverted side, at least for a night (or a slutty long weekend in more than a few cases).

Yes, a bar scene is what you make it. And there will always be those who cruise for sex in alleyways, parks and bathrooms (an increasingly Republican endeavor) because that is what they want. Sleaze will always be there as well.

I found my last couple forays into leather bars had turned into practically mocking parodies of their so-called ideals, and that made me stay away for a while now. It seemed there was some sort of loose club event going on, and the posturing and awkward role playing looked like the early tryout of American Idol with people completely clueless of how bad they were presenting themselves to others. Ditto some of the bear runs. I much prefer the small, intimate club setting, casual gatherings, etc.

[joebehrsandiego.livejournal.com]

Buying and reading "Rushes" (http://www.johnrechy.com/rushes.htm) and "Mineshaft Nights" (http://www.amazon.com/Mineshaft-Nights-Leo-Cardini/dp/0943383013) as a just-out guy in the late '80s, I decided missing that "golden era" was not all (or even mostly) bad.

The legendary Wolf's in San Diego isn't even a *gay* bar anymore ... but gay socializing in SD (and most places) seems more comfortable and inclusive now than it was 10+ years ago.

[gryphons-hole.livejournal.com]

This list is clever and accurate.

Thanks. Sorry I missed it when it was fresh.